Well, we finally started back kicking some ass in Iraq

[fstroupe]

Its about time.

[Beemer]

Yeah, but we also got some ass kicking served to us. Over 100 soldiers killed this month. (Thats not to say that we dont dish out more punishment than we take) :wink:

[KryoNexus]

Yeah, but we also got some ass kicking served to us. Over 100 soldiers killed this month. (Thats not to say that we dont dish out more punishment than we take) :wink:

[start rant] you know, we have lost less people on average per month in this war than any other war in US history. sure, loosing any lives at all is not good, we all know that, but i get tired of hearing the media with their "the US lost another 25 soldiers today" nonsense. let's take a look at how the numbers really speak.

Conflict: Avg. Killed per Month (US Soldiers)
WWI: 2816
WWII: 6639
Korean War: 909
Vietnam War: 526
Persian Gulf War: 148
Afghanistan War: 1.6
Iraq War: 60

the stats were found at The Truth Seeker.com (http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=984)

possibly we all need to wise up a bit and realize that it's war and that both sides are going to have casualities. that's just part of war. oh, beemer, wasn't trying to attack your statement....was just building on it.

[/end rant]

[fstroupe]

Yeah, but we also got some ass kicking served to us. Over 100 soldiers killed this month.


And that's just too damn many for us to have been screwing around waiting for cowardly attacks, worrying how the rest of the world will feel about it. A soldier's job is not diplomacy, peacekeeping or nation building. A soldier's job is to kill people and break things, and to keep the enemy from killing you and breaking your stuff.

I personally feel that over the past 10-15 years, "we" have raised a generation of pussy-assed high ranking generals, more concerned about diplomacy and "covering their asses" than soldiering. Seems like licking Congressmen's balls now is the main requirement to get promoted to LTG (3 star) and GEN (4 star), instead of training and leading an ass kicking unit of soldiers. Westley Clark is a prime example. Tommy Franks probably was another one, though he wasn't in the limelight long enough to really tell.

Who is commander over there now? I had to Google it to see, and I watch a helluva lot of news. General Abizaid spent much of his early career as a paratrooper, and airborne commanders are pretty hardcore, at least all of the ones I knew were. He commanded the 173rd Airborne Brigade during Desert Storm. At least he's smart enough to maintain a low profile, and letting the Prez and Rumsfeld take the heat for the bad stuff thats happening over there. Maybe the blame's falling where it's due, I dunno. They claim to be letting the generals fight this war.....

[Beemer]

I like the small number of dpm but still that 60 husbands, sons, and or farthers killed every month (in todays war i guess that could be wives daugters and mothers). I just question the way we police the area. I dont know a whole lot about the tactics being used over there but I feel like we could do a better job of trying to scave off cowardly attacks on our soldiers. On a side note, when our kids look back at this conflict in history class and see what saddam did to his people, regaurdless of there being any weapons of mass destruction, it will be compared to Nazi Germany and the persecution of the Jewish people. We all know what happened there, eventually we would have been sucked into another such war with a greater cost in lives and $. So many people say its not our problem, but if we ignore it long enough, it could turn into our problem on a much grander scale.

[KryoNexus]

I like the small number of dpm but still that 60 husbands, sons, and or farthers killed every month (in todays war i guess that could be wives daugters and mothers). I just question the way we police the area. I dont know a whole lot about the tactics being used over there but I feel like we could do a better job of trying to scave off cowardly attacks on our soldiers. On a side note, when our kids look back at this conflict in history class and see what saddam did to his people, regaurdless of there being any weapons of mass destruction, it will be compared to Nazi Germany and the persecution of the Jewish people. We all know what happened there, eventually we would have been sucked into another such war with a greater cost in lives and $. So many people say its not our problem, but if we ignore it long enough, it could turn into our problem on a much grander scale.

yeh, very very true about the Nazi bit. however, about the tactics part....i would gaurantee that if i didn't care about loosing my life (as many of the small groups of terrorists believe), then i could easily walk up to a group of soldiers and take out a few of them. it's like when we fought the japanese...hard to defend against them when their falling from the sky

[fstroupe]

regaurdless of there being any weapons of mass destruction,

Now THAT'S where my rant comes in....in 1998, when we had a DIFFERENT president (/me clears throat), we KNEW there were WMD. The UN team, ALL of our congress, hell all of the world, knew it. He used them in Iran. He used them on the Kurds...a quick Google will find photos of that. Hell, Bubba blew up an asprin factory (I personally am not satisfied that that was what it was) because of it.

Now we can't find them. I don't imagine we ever will, unless Saddam tells us where they are...I imagine he had all involved with the hiding (or moving to another country) executed.

Many imply but not express that they never existed. Some actually express that they never existed. Guess they think Bubba blew up the factory for fun. Maybe a cruise missile reminds him of a cigar......

(/me ends rant)

Disclaimer.....I am not a great fan of George W. Bush, nor am I totally satisfied that we entered Iraq at the right time. (though it would eventually have to be done) I do know for a fact that our intelligence from that part of the world has sucked for a long time, and Bubba got bad intelligence, as well as "W" and his dad.

[Beemer]

I guess we have better inteligence now that we are setting up a new government over there. There is now doubt that saddam was a threat to his people and to our nation. The longer we wait the more time for him to prepare something. We should have finshed it a long time ago we would have this mess today.

[fstroupe]

yeh, very very true about the Nazi bit.

There are some distinct differences between Hitler and Saddam....the German people generally believed in Hitler. Saddam has always ruled that country by fear. Though the killing of the Kurds is similiar to the holocaust, the execution of those who don't agree with you is pretty much the rule with dictators. Many, especially Sean Hannity, totally equate the Saddam experience with the holocaust. There are too many differences.

however, about the tactics part....i would gaurantee that if i didn't care about loosing my life (as many of the small groups of terrorists believe), then i could easily walk up to a group of soldiers and take out a few of them. it's like when we fought the japanese...hard to defend against them when their falling from the sky


How do you fight someone that isn't afraid to die? The terrorists believe they will go to heaven and get their free virgins, the Japanese believed their Karma would be raised. Its scary as hell.....

[Beemer]

There are some distinct differences between Hitler and Saddam....the German people generally believed in Hitler. Saddam has always ruled that country by fear. Though the killing of the Kurds is similiar to the holocaust, the execution of those who don't agree with you is pretty much the rule with dictators. Many, especially Sean Hannity, totally equate the Saddam experience with the holocaust. There are too many differences.


Well, the reason for killing may be different (dictator ruling by fear, extreme hatred of the jewish people) but the results are the same, mass killing of innocent people.

[fstroupe]

There is now doubt that saddam was a threat to his people and to our nation.

See my earlier rant....

I guess we have better inteligence now that we are setting up a new government over there.

Yeah, in Iraq, anyway. We have serious problems in our stagetic intelligence system that 911 panels, congressional hearings, creating homeland security departments, passing patriot acts, etc WILL NOT fix. The problems are immense, and have been around for a long time.

You have all of the problems brought out over the past few years...the CIA and FBI not talking to each other, the nearly elimination of human intelligence (spys) etc, the financial cut-backs, etc. Many of these problems are legal/constitutional in nature and cannot be changed easily, if at all.

A huge problem, one that most people aren't aware of, though Newt Gingrich started warning us about it even before he became Speaker, is the Washington bureaucracy, especially in the Dept of State, which is a large group of career government workers that take few if any orders from whoever happens to be Sec of State at the time. What the hell does he know about diplomacy? What does that have to do with it, you may ask?

The Dept of State was the central intelligence point of, and running the missions: Urgent Fury (Grenada, a huge farce); Just Cause (Panama, the State Dept guys were notified by members of my unit on Noriega's location on the 2nd day of the operation, their answer was that they had no intelligence pointing to that fact....I WAS IN A DAMN MILITARY INTELLIGENCE BATTALION....THIS IS INTELLIGENCE THAT WE ARE GIVING YOU!); Provide Relief/Restore Hope (Mogadishu, Somalia...watch the movie "BlackHawk Down" if you have any questions...that operation was the biggest screw-up there, but not the only one).

The CIA, FBI, NSA, DIS, DEA, and soon the Dept of Homeland Security, also are run by career Washingtonians. They all belong to the Gov't Employees Union, so they pretty much can't be fired. They don't take orders from whatever political appointee or military person in charge at the time, because the "boss" is just passing through, and "we" know more than he does about running this organization.

President Eisenhower warned us about another problem: "Beware of the military industrial machine." There is little doubt in my mind that our "intelligence" we were told about during the cold war was tainted...we (intelligence guys in the military) were pretty much assured that Soviet technology was only a couple of years behind ours...try a couple of decades!

I'll end this rant...my blood pressure is going up...this is a passionate subjets to me 'cause I was there...

[Beemer]

Well, this has been educational. I think most of it comes back to conflicting intrests. Freedom comes with its price, we had to sacrifice some freedom for security after 9-11. Same in Washington, inteligence and warfare comes at a huge price, with a government in debt up to its ears, we need to cut spending. With this cut somes a sacrifice of inteligence, its a very fine line to balance. None the less, good intel, bad intel, no intel, I think we were right in going into Iraq and we need to finish what we start. Hopefully sooner than later

[siq]

wow... don't even get me started on this stuff. We're over there and we need to be. People say "you can't stop terrorism." Well hell you can't stop crime either, are you going to fire all the policeman and let it run wild?


ARG :evil:

[KryoNexus]

wow... don't even get me started on this stuff. We're over there and we need to be. People say "you can't stop terrorism." Well hell you can't stop crime either, are you going to fire all the policeman and let it run wild?


ARG :evil:

actually, a very good point.

[techniq]

I find it amusing on people critising Bush's war effort. While I agree somewhat that he sidestepped the usual process a little, I find it amazing how many people/news reporters/etc try to bring up that he knew something about 9/11 before it happened, yet did not, now with him acting on what I believe to be more precise information about Iraq having nuclear/biological weapons, people critize him for ACTING and not waiting to have to REACT. I wont say bush is the best president we've had, but he has had alot on his plate than I feel the past few presidents have had to deal with.

[KryoNexus]

I find it amusing on people critising Bush's war effort. While I agree somewhat that he sidestepped the usual process a little, I find it amazing how many people/news reporters/etc try to bring up that he knew something about 9/11 before it happened, yet did not, now with him acting on what I believe to be more precise information about Iraq having nuclear/biological weapons, people critize him for ACTING and not waiting to have to REACT. I wont say bush is the best president we've had, but he has had alot on his plate than I feel the past few presidents have had to deal with.

i'd say by the end of his second term, or right thereafter, many will say he was as good as reagan

[siq]

Plus gore probably would have all gave them candy hearts and tell them love is all they need..

[Beemer]

I wont say bush is the best president we've had, but he has had alot on his plate than I feel the past few presidents have had to deal with.

Actually I would say its been on their plate, they just havent delt with it.

*I would rather act than react

[fstroupe]

Bush has done an excellent job. I hate it that he says a lot of stuff that leaves him wide open for his critics, the communists....errr...the dems...but they are going to criticize him anyway.

To clarify a couple of earlier statements:

I'm not necessessarily convinced that the time was right for Iraq...not because of the inspection team or process, not because of the UN or the rest of the world, not because fighting both in Iraq and Afghanistan at the same time would stretch our military too thin (It wouldn't). I guess mainly, I felt that we should (a) have had a defacto Iraqui government ready to step in immediately, and at least act like they were doing something, (b) we should have actually prepared an uprising by Iraqui citizens and military during the invasion, instead of hoping for one (that didn't happen), and (c) we should have made plans to use at least some of the Iraqui army for a police force, instead of totally leaving them out of the equasion.

AND, I'm not anti Bush. He wasn't my first choice, though my man will NEVER be president. GO PAT GO!!!

[silenze]

...............................

[jurtje]

It's been awfully quiet here the last two weeks.......... :wink:

[silenze]

.........................

[Beemer]

I care more about ability than apearance. If it comes to apearances, Bill Clinton apeared to be a lying cheat. (as he was) But hey, he had charisma! Yea, he had great leadership abilities he just pussy-footed around terrorism. But the economy was good :roll:

[silenze]

............................

[striker777]

"...fight your fight..."

WTF, you have got to be kidding me.

[silenze]

..................

[siq]

i would rather not get into a political discussion :D

[jurtje]

Again?

[Beemer]

Sitting on your ass and sending hundreds of thousands of soldiers to go fight your fight is quite the ability... coming across as an illiterate fool is one of his best abilities I guess...... .ahem.....

Didn't sound like an illiterate fool after 9/11. Granted he is not the best speaker ever but no one is perfect; no president will ever be perfect. At least he stands up for what he believes in, and will go the extra mile to keep us safe. So he is sending thousands of soldiers to fight his fight, funny a couple years ago it was "our fight". We all wanted anyone who had anything to with 9/11 to pay. We all wanted to ensure our security and prevent anything like that from happening again. So, he took the opertunity to make America safer and ran with it. Guess your not into being safe though. What about our soldiers? I would love for them to be back here safe and sound, but they signed up to keep us safe and that is what they are trying to do. They knew the cost when they joined. I dont mean to seem heartless but at least they have weapons to fight with, the people in the planes and towers didnt. Again, I would rather act than react.

[silenze]

..................

[silenze]

....................

[playafly187]

can you hear me now?


:lol: :lol:

[silenze]

.........................

[siq]

ya know... people complain so much about this country. if you're that unhappy with it, move to canada.

[playafly187]

ya know... people complain so much about this country. if you're that unhappy with it, move to canada.

LOL, ya got a good point

[silenze]

....................

[striker777]

"...fight your fight..."

WTF, you have got to be kidding me.

heh...

OMG someone has an opinion different than mine, kill them!

I was examplifying Bush's great "abilities" ..........................


Thanks...next time when I want to post something I'll just let you do all the typing for me and add whatever you want to my text. You don't send the Head of the Military to the War Zone...I don't remember reading about Eisenhower jumping in any trenches and he was a **** General at the time.

[silenze]

...........

[striker777]

Quote
Pronunciation: 'kwOt also 'kOt
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): quot·ed; quot·ing
1 a : to speak or write (a passage) from another usually with credit acknowledgment b : to repeat a passage from especially in substantiation or illustration

But if you insist...

:eat this: <---Silenze

[silenze]

........

[siq]

Silenze I'm not trying to pick on you because you are allowed to have your own opinion and this wouldn't be a free country if that wasn't possible. But I mean with so many people expressing your concern about how Bush has "inabilities" to do whatever you people wish, you just have to accept the fact that he does what he does. Now I am a supporter of bush and I think what he is doing is the right thing. Now I agree, he doesn't have the best speech abilities in the world, but if we judged intelligence on speech, bullshitters would rule the world. I think if someone is so compelled and appalled (sp?) of our nation's leader and his actions, why even live here. I mean I'm sure you could move to other countries. But like i said before, I'm not picking on you in any way it's just I see someone like you with a strong opinion why are you still here?

[silenze]

......

[siq]

No, I asked you why you are still here. Why haven't you moved to a different country.

[silenze]

Because you do not control my life, I will not dignify that with an answer...

*unsubscribes from thread*

[jurtje]

There would be a whole lot of moving going on, if everyone who didn't agree with one president, would flee the country.

The president is not the only thing that bonds you to a country.

[Beemer]

Dang, miss a weekend and now i see a bunch of ".............."

[striker777]

Now that is just freaking lame...Credibility Points = 0 now

[silenze]

Fuck you guys, you reiterate that I'm free to my own opinion yet you proceed to attack it and pick on me for it.... so I blanked all my posts and I'm going to ignore this thread...............................



Judging me based on a few posts on a website on the internet... yeah you guys know me real well, but you ARE awfully quick to jump to conclusions........

[silenze]

There would be a whole lot of moving going on, if everyone who didn't agree with one president, would flee the country.

The president is not the only thing that bonds you to a country.



Amen.......... now, guys, is Bush the ONLY reason you live in this country? Consider the possibility some of the OTHER reasons you're here are the same as mine..........................

k I'm done.

[siq]

okay i tried to be nice to you buy asking you questions about your opinion. now you're just being a smartass. i valued you opinion and looked for reason in them. comes to find out all you like to do is say what you think and not give two craps about anyone else. you're in it for you and what you think and your opinion is the only one that matters. you know if you would go past the fact that i wasn't trying to make you look like an ass (which you automatically just did yourself) and see that I was trying to figure out why you complain so much about this country when everything our president does pisses you off. if you want to do something about it, get into politics. stop pissing and moaning about what the hell is going on with our president and accept the fact that he does what he does. he might have inabilities in speech but that doesn't by far make you more intelligent than him, nor anyone else. if i were you, i'd pull your head out of your ass.

[silenze]

Like I said, you don't know me... I'm aware of all this.

"i valued you opinion and looked for reason in them. comes to find out all you like to do is say what you think and not give two craps about anyone else. you're in it for you and what you think and your opinion is the only one that matters."

Maybe we missed each other then, cause it's flipside from this perspective. (I'm being serious here.) Your intent wasn't very obvious to me, it only looked offensive.

"and see that I was trying to figure out why you complain so much about this country when everything our president does pisses you off."

Everything he does doesn't piss me off -- it started as a joke, honestly... obviously some took offense to it -- cause you guys have strong opinions, too.

"if you want to do something about it, get into politics. stop pissing and moaning about what the hell is going on with our president and accept the fact that he does what he does. "

I really have no speculation on this matter -- I have accepted that he and the govt do what they do, it's thier job, a majority of the people in this country chose them to do it, and they seem to be doing a good job. I do my thing and they do their's... I stay out of it.. I'm not political, like I said it started as a joke............

[siq]

then i will say this. i apologize for making such rude comments about you. i'm not the type of person to do so. just wanted to let you know i have no hard feelings towards you.

besides, it's all a forum anyway :wink:.

[silenze]

heheh :lol:

Same to you guys.

[fstroupe]

The thing that is most unfortunite, is that the press and the other party now gives potential and elected presidents so much hell that the best don't bother. We now mostly get candates that want it so desperately that they will do anything for it, or those like Ralph Nader and Pat Buchanan that know they won't be elected, but are trying to make a point. :cry:

[jurtje]

First of all, pretty mature of all of you, I'm happy to see we didn't sink so low on this forum :wink: . It's almost impossible to change one's mind when it comes to politics, so we just have to accept each opinion.

The thing Knutsaac said, I think is partly true. Ofcourse the Media has gone wild, especially in the USA. But then again, that's how this day and age are, it's part of the job to know how to deal with that.
Ofcourse both parties are always picking on eachother's candidates and that's where another problem lies of American politics: the fact that there are only two real parties.
A "normal" democracy has several big parties and therefore takes the edge off of the picking, as there are more parties to pick on. Also there are more chances to get on top of such a party and then grow on to become a leader / senator / president.

[Beemer]

Silenze
I never intended to attack you but it might have came off that way as you were represnting the "other" side :wink: I like to hear opinions and banter back and forth. I enjoyed all your remarks and i feel many people would agree with you. It is nice to have different opinions argued - after all that is what makes the country what it is. Yes I am a strong supporter of W ::refrains from going into why:: but I also try to be open-minded in such matters, so that when it comes time to vote I can way both sides and make an informed descision. :wink: So I would like to appologize for anytime that I might have seemed to be "attacking" you, and I would like to thank you for your opinion. :D

[silenze]

no harm no foul :D

[silenze]

http://tinyurl.com/35vh5

[fstroupe]

http://tinyurl.com/35vh5

Guys, this is a wierd bill. It was introduced into congress in Jan 2003. Here is the bill summary:

Universal National Service Act of 2003 - Declares that it is the obligation of every U.S. citizen, and every other person residing in the United States, between the ages of 18 and 26 to perform a two-year period of national service, unless exempted, either as a member of an active or reserve component of the armed forces or in a civilian capacity that promotes national defense. Requires induction into national service by the President. Sets forth provisions governing: (1) induction deferments, postponements, and exemptions, including exemption of a conscientious objector from military service that includes combatant training; and (2) discharge following national service.

Amends the Military Selective Service Act to authorize the military registration of females

The reason I say it is a wierd bill, is that it is completely sponsored and co-sponsored by democrats. Not only democrats, but some of the most liberal democrats in the house.

Sponsor-Charles Rangle - NY

Rep Abercrombie, Neil - HI
Rep Brown, Corrine - FL
Rep Christensen, Donna M. - VI
Rep Clay, Wm. Lacy - MO
Rep Conyers, John, Jr. - MI
Rep Cummings, Elijah E. - MD
Rep Hastings, Alcee L. - FL
Rep Jackson-Lee, Sheila - TX
Rep Lewis, John - GA
Rep McDermott, Jim - WA
Rep Moran, James P. - VA
Rep Norton, Eleanor Holmes - DC
Rep Stark, Fortney Pete - CA
Rep Velazquez, Nydia M. - NY

This bill has been in the house armed services "total force subcommittee" since Jan 03. If you would like to see the 121 bills being considered by this subcommittee this congress, go to http://www.congress.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/R?d108:FLD005:@3(House+Total+Force) One of them is that they decided that Harriet Tubman should have received a pension for her nursing services performed during the Civil War. (your tax dollars hard at work)

The Senate bill was introduced by Sen Fritz Hollings (another ultra liberal) with no co-sponsors, and was sent to committee 7 Jan 03, where it has sat since.

In other words, both totally democrat bills, both sitting in subcommittee for nearly a year-and-a-half. Don't pack your bags yet. :)

[striker777]

Thanks for the great summary knutsaac.

[fstroupe]

I'm into that kind of stuff. And, I have concerns too, as I have one son that is 21, and one 18, and I would prefer that they have their own choice as to whether or not to go into the military.

I think that the main purpose of the bill was to introduce women to the draft, and to make the Peace Corps an option.

[striker777]

The quality of our military would decline drastically if everyone were forced to serve for a time.

[Beemer]

i dont know about that, those that were not good fighters could work behind the front lines. Might be pretty scary to have some people who would normally be in harvard out there calculating the odds of taking a place and its strategic value. Might actually be pretty cool.

[Kattikawn]

Oh that bill. I read about that a few months ago and did some investigating into why it was proposed by a Democrat. It was basically a joke by Charles Rangel to make the Republicans more reluctant to jump into war when the entire country, both male and female, would be required to fight.

Of course, Rangel is the same asshat who stated that an all-volunteer military is racist. :roll: