Bush or Kerry?

[playafly187]

...

[jurtje]

Definitely Kerry, not very impressed with Bush' acting so far. But I'll refrain (spelling?) myself from any further comments.

[fstroupe]

you left off Pat Buchanan...and Hillery.

[undergroundtech]

niether, thats like asking whats your favorite car? A Grimlin or a Pacer.
I just wish there was someone worth voting for. :roll:

[T-shirt]

I'm not even sure why you have to ask, Bush is going down fast. And I know I won't miss him.

[siq]

Heh... we don't want to start anything else political... well atleast i don't.

Those that have been around should know who I will vote for.

[Beemer]

Yea, talkin politics can turn ugly in hurry. I think people know where I stand as well.....

[B16SOLNA]

as a poli sci major and an expert on the matter (note loads of sarcasm) i find myself hating the fact that either one of these shitbags is going to be our president. however i am tired of our country looking like the asshat of the world scene while we do what we do over there. i know that with bush, or any republican, in office, this bullshit war in iraq will continue. i do agree with all out raging hell being brought down on terrorists, but this is ridiculous. anyway, this being said, as well as the economy being in the state that its in, democrats just might be the way to go, as much as i hate those guys, its probably the right thing to do this time. and i thought of myself as a hardcore republican......who knew?

[KryoNexus]

as a poli sci major and an expert on the matter (note loads of sarcasm) i find myself hating the fact that either one of these shitbags is going to be our president. however i am tired of our country looking like the asshat of the world scene while we do what we do over there. i know that with bush, or any republican, in office, this bullshit war in iraq will continue. i do agree with all out raging hell being brought down on terrorists, but this is ridiculous. anyway, this being said, as well as the economy being in the state that its in, democrats just might be the way to go, as much as i hate those guys, its probably the right thing to do this time. and i thought of myself as a hardcore republican......who knew?

btw, pulling out of iraq after we've dessimated them would be the worst mistake we've ever made. talk about an entire region of the world hating you more than they already do...

[siq]

as a poli sci major and an expert on the matter (note loads of sarcasm) i find myself hating the fact that either one of these shitbags is going to be our president. however i am tired of our country looking like the asshat of the world scene while we do what we do over there. i know that with bush, or any republican, in office, this bullshit war in iraq will continue. i do agree with all out raging hell being brought down on terrorists, but this is ridiculous. anyway, this being said, as well as the economy being in the state that its in, democrats just might be the way to go, as much as i hate those guys, its probably the right thing to do this time. and i thought of myself as a hardcore republican......who knew?


lalallalalallaal i'm not hearing this lalalallalalalallala

[Beemer]

I think the economy is recovering nicely considering what it has been through and the way Bill left it when he finished his final term :lol:

[KryoNexus]

Hey, I've got a great idea!!! Let's cut the national defense budget to a mere fraction of what it was and use all that leftover money to pour into the technology (dot com's) industry stocks. This will only give us a temporary boost in the economy, but hey, if we drop into a depression after I get out of office, at least all the left wingers will swear that I made the economy great

and really no offense to democrats, i'm actually registerred as one right now. just not a big fan of Bill

[silenze]

Where is the apathy option? :?

[Alfonse]

I think the US dollar is at the lowest it's been in my lifetime, (24 yrs) I can easily remember not too long ago when it was 55-60 cents to buy a Canadian Dollar, now it's 75.
I watched some show, A&E or something, that said Clinton actually made a surplus. Amazing stuff.
With pending legislation for a Draft(conscription) in 2005, more military spending than the rest of the world combined & multiplied, and six trillion($6,000,000,000,000) in foreign debt, all a republican United States is going to do is continue to make war, loot, pillage, hold countries' heads under water, and repeat, under the guise of freedom and war on tyranny & terrorism. It's all they can do, they can't just reverse all that spending.
I almost want Bush to win again because it's going to take a lot more failure and crisis than Bush can muster in one term to change the average American point of view. Here's hoping it just doesn't cost too many lives.

[fstroupe]

hmmmm...guess my post about the draft was on the site before the big crash...anyway, don't worry about the "pending draft legislation"...it's a joke. (yes, it was submitted, the first day of this congressional session, but has not been touch since, and since ALL of the sponsors are among the most liberal democrats in congress, likewise the senate, it AIN'T gonna happen) I'll go back and find the links if you want.

[XPTB]

I say Kerry. Since Bush has screwed up most things so far, I figure Kerry couldn't do much worse.

I have a feeling I'm going to eat my words though, that happens alot

[silenze]

hmmmm...guess my post about the draft was on the site before the big crash...anyway, don't worry about the "pending draft legislation"...it's a joke. (yes, it was submitted, the first day of this congressional session, but has not been touch since, and since ALL of the sponsors are among the most liberal democrats in congress, likewise the senate, it AIN'T gonna happen) I'll go back and find the links if you want.

http://forums.ocia.net/viewtopic.php?p=2546#2546

( http://www.congress.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/R?d108:FLD005:@3(House+Total+Force) )

[leezard]

I read something the other day that pretty much summed up how I feel about the whole thing. This is from a site I frequent often and was not written by me.

I was at the Boston Museum of Science yesterday, and was rather intrigued by a display they had set p by the Bureau of Census. It seems the population of the US goes up by one person every fourteen seconds. I forget the exact figures but it was something like a birth every 13 seconds, a death every 18 seconds, an immigrant every 30 seconds, and an emmigrant every 158 seconds. Think about that for a bit. Someone chooses to come to the United States every half a minute. But the rate at which someone chooses to leave is two and a half minutes. If we're so hated around the world, then why is everyone coming here?

It's easy to lose sight of the fact that the Middle East is improving for the better. It was amazing to see the fact that more than 9 million people in Afganistan are registered to vote -- more than 40% of them women and about three times the amount expected -- and they're being intimidated and shot at just for carrying a voting card. Hell, we can't get Americans to get off our lazy boys to stop watching T.V. for an hour to go vote. Women over there used to be treated like dogs, now they're gaining a voice in who is going to govern them and they will have a hand in making positive changes. That is probably one of the biggest success stories for women's rights on the face of the planet in the past decade, yet does the U.S. or Bush hear any praise? No! Why not? Does no one else except those living in Afganistan realize how fucking incredible this is? Do we hear anyone from France saying "God Damn, you Americans are outrageously great people!" No! Why isn't the media praising Bush for this accomplishment? Why does the media only mention the hardships? If the media would just present a balanced representation of everything happening, Bush's poll numbers would be in the 80% range.

What do we hear? Pathetic morons like Michael Moore, Sean Penn, Whoopi Goldberg, and lots of other losers from Hollywood along with idiots from the music biz like Springsteen and Ronstatd, all pissin and moanin. We really need to ship some more of these pathetic fucks overseas to gain a better understanding of the world around them. Seems things are a little skewed in their little Hollywood world.

Who would have said after 9/11 that in less than three years, the Taliban would be out of Afganistan, they would be a democratic country, and women would be voting? No one. Everyone, including our media, thought we were going to get our asses kicked over their in those big, bad, rough mountain areas. Now those areas are just used as hideouts by the remaining enemy -- and their day will come too.

Three years from now, liberals are going to look like idiots when things are so much better in Iraq. They're going to lose all credibility when it comes to foreign relations. But they don't see that, all they care about is whether or not they can get elected right now.

My beef with Kerry's stories, is that he opted to make a big national case for being a war hero. Real war heros don't usually do that. But since he decided to make a national case for how great he was for four months in Vietnam, it is fair to question whether or not he really was. So far, from most accounts, his record doesn't look very good. The swift boat vets are really kicking his ass. He really should have left that issue alone and ran on his policies. But I understand that's a problem, because no one knows what his policies are this week.

This election year isn't "vote for me because I'm the best cantidate," it's, "vote for me because I'm less of a fucking moron than the other guy."

From Ernies House of Whoopass
http://www.ehowa.com/home.shtml

[Alfonse]

Sounds like an opinion piece, all right.
With misinformation everywhere, I'd say you're believing what you want to believe.

http://proliberty.com/observer/20011002.htm

http://money.cnn.com/2003/04/11/news/companies/war_halliburton/

Bush is just a mouthpiece. The root of the problem lies much deeper within the American populace. What they believe, are willing to believe, and how much fabricated information they absorb, will perpetuate this. The rest of the world complains because it possesses objectivity.
I'd be scared of a government that consistently lied to me.

[fstroupe]

IThree years from now, liberals are going to look like idiots when things are so much better in Iraq. They're going to lose all credibility when it comes to foreign relations. But they don't see that, all they care about is whether or not they can get elected right now.


That has never and will never happen, for several reasons.

1. The American people have an extremely short memory. Remember Kovoso and Bosnia? No, you don't, though there are still thousands of American troops there. Korea something new? Hell no, there have been American soldiers on the DMZ on 2 minute alert for 50 years...no, I'm not exaggerating, 'cause I've been there. Vietnam? Honestly, did any of you ever think about Vietnam before this presidential campaign...except for playing BFV. Three years from now, even if there are American soldiers still dying there, it will be a faded memory in the minds of most Americans.

2. Neither political party ever comes out on the short end of the stick...just ask them. One party is no more guilty of the other at spinning the results of failed party policy to make them look like winners...or the other party losers. The sad thing is not the spinning...the sad thing is that probably 75% of Americans are too uncaring, ignorant, or stupid to realize it. I can name countless times this has happened in the past 25 years.

3. The Dems have it easier because their points can usually be explained in a single sentence. The Republican side usually requires drawn out explanations, statistics, and proof. The news media is only interested in 5 second sound bites, and the attention of most of the people that actually listen to the news is not much beyond that.

I.E...Dems: "Reganomics was a failure, because of the deficit increase, that we will leave to our children."

Republicans: "Here are the statistics of increased revenues to the treasury as opposed to the increased Congressional spending on domestic programs...and here are the statistics on the number of people that left the ranks of the poor to join the middle class, and the statistics of those that left the middle class to become part of the rich...here is a graph showing the increase of personal investment in 1990 as opposed to 1970 and 1980, and this graph shows the increased returns on investments....".

And the Dems have the added benefit of saying that they are doing something "for the children".

[fstroupe]

Sounds like an opinion piece, all right....
(massive snippage)

The rest of the world complains because it possesses objectivity.


Do you truly believe that?

[jurtje]

If we're so hated around the world, then why is everyone coming here?

The USA has been the world's number one immigration country since..... ever, only the Indians were more or less native. If you have ever been to let's say Nicaragua, you can imagine why the people there rather live in the USA, just because they have a slightly bigger chance to have a brighter future.
However, that doesn't mean they all agree with Bush' external politics, the way he handles the defecit or whatever.

That is probably one of the biggest success stories for women's rights on the face of the planet in the past decade, yet does the U.S. or Bush hear any praise? No! Why not? Does no one else except those living in Afganistan realize how fucking incredible this is?

Ummm, last time I checked, those so called elections weren't much of a success, the country is far more chaotic than it has ever been. Bush came to do what was best for him and then forgot to clean up after him.
Ofcourse the Taliban had to be removed in some way, but at these costs? With these results? Have you checked the newspaper on the current situation in Iraq?

The swift boat vets are really kicking his ass

You stand corrected. :roll:

Why it's interesting to the American public what politicians do in their free time, will always be a big question for me.
I mean, for all I care my president is a cross dressing homo who likes to gangbang, who gets his cock sucked while smoking pot by an even gayer cross dresser on his wife's birthday.
He has to run the country, he has to be good at that. His private life doesn't impede him to be a very good leader.

[Alfonse]

Do you truly believe that?

Well, foreign countries aren't subjected to the US's heavily biased, in-bred media. Faced with the lies of the US Administration, only one nation in the world really openly declared support, and Blair is soon to face an ancient form of impeachment for it. I won't define objectivity, but a large portion of the free world is currently outraged and alarmed at the US's conduct. NOT that I think that there's much that can be done to get off this current track. America uses some 800 million gallons of gas just to cut the grass every year. That's something worth fighting for.

[Beemer]

Why it's interesting to the American public what politicians do in their free time, will always be a big question for me.
I mean, for all I care my president is a cross dressing homo who likes to gangbang, who gets his cock sucked while smoking pot by an even gayer cross dresser on his wife's birthday.
He has to run the country, he has to be good at that. His private life doesn't impede him to be a very good leader.

Because he is the LEADER of the nation. IE- he leads we follow. He also represents the American public, and even though most of the American public falls into one of your above categories, it is still nice to have the highest representative of our nation acting responsibly and nobly. You dont become president for the money, you couldn't fund a campaign on the salary, its about the prestige of the office, and I would like to keep it that way. No one is perfect, and past presidents have had their short comings, but they maintained their integrity, and the integrity of the office. It IS our business what he does in his personal life because he is the figurative international leader of our nation. If his integrity is questioned, so is that of our nation, and that of the office of president itself. Oh and by the way, the presidency is a full time job - there is no free time.

[leezard]

You stand corrected. :roll:



I guess you missed the part where I said I didnt write it, and that it "sums" up how I feel. Maybe I should have clarified it a little better.

Basicly what I'm getting at, is you can make ANY situation suit your needs, good or bad. The pro bush crowd can say, hey look at all the good we have done, Iraq is a free country, women have rights, ppl can elect who governs them, the taliban is gone...blah blah blah.

The Anti bush crowd can turn araound and say, the country is destroyed, X # of ppl have been killed, we shouldnt have been there in the 1st place blah blah blah.

Who is right or wrong is all a matter of opinion, but theres two sides to a coin...problem is each side of this coin trys to cover up the other.

[jurtje]

True.


What is a democracy with only two parties anyway?

[Alfonse]

"Facts," "news," "evidence..." as it stands, these things could be debated until the cows came home. There simply is no viable source of information on the motives and actions of a world power. History is written by the victors. With that stuff in mind, I just want to try to make a tiny little point:

Doesn't a little red flag go up when the Commander in Chief makes up his own words? I don't understand how a man lacking highschool english knowledge attained the office of President. How does he qualify, aside from greenbacks? He is an installed leader. So we take all that, and then we mix in that he chose an Attorney General who lost an election to a dead man, a few incidents of barefaced lying on a world stage, and some dereliction of duty, and we get a president likely to be re-elected?
What could possibly balance that equation?

Nonetheless and afterall; a real patriot stands by his country even when his administration lies to him, his vote doesn't count, and his leader can almost speak one language.

[fstroupe]

I guess before I go any farther, I want to explain my position on the war...I openly stated before it started that I really didn't think it was the right time yet, mainly because I knew our intelligence sucked as bad now as it did in Desert Shield/Storm. It has pretty much gone as I expected, though I expected the trouble afterward to come from the Iraqui army and not terrorists from outside. I also assumed that Saddam most likely had moved his chemical and biological weapons outside of Iraq, considering his actions up to the deadline, and Bush would be made out to be a fool by those who hate him.

I also am not a great fan of Pres Bush. But, with the exception of a very few possibles in congress, and my hero, Pat Buchanan, I haven't seen anyone that could do any better.



Well, foreign countries aren't subjected to the US's heavily biased, in-bred media.

The only difference in the bias in the foreign media and the US media is that the foreign media openly admits what side they are for, as in the UK, it is usually in the masthead. US newspapers did that prior to the Spanish-American War.

The US media now spends all of its time trying to make people believe that it is neutral, with the exception of The Wall Street Journal, and the Washington Times, who are admittedly conservative. Pretty much the remainder of the US media is extremely liberal, excepting anything owned by Rupert Murdoch. I know you will deny this...I did too until I was shown the light 20 years ago, during the 1984 elections.


Faced with the lies of the US Administration, only one nation in the world really openly declared support, and Blair is soon to face an ancient form of impeachment for it.

Actually, they wanted to use the same impeachment process against Winston Churchil, prior to 1939. Dunkirk changed their minds.

I won't define objectivity, but a large portion of the free world is currently outraged and alarmed at the US's conduct. NOT that I think that there's much that can be done to get off this current track.

Yeah, objectivity is pretty hard to define. Let's see, though...Hard for France, Germany, and Russia to be objective, since they had a lot to lose by Saddam being removed from power, due to allowing trade with Iraq, thus violating the UN resolution that they all signed. The Middle Eastern dictatorships/Monarchies/fundamentalists benefitted from Saddam being there, because no one really paid attention to their civil rights violations since his were so bad. OPEC countries benefitted from the instability Iraq lent to the oil situation. You really can't consider objective the countries that hated us in the first place, nor any country whose GDP is less that that of the smallest state. Hmmm....who does that leave?


America uses some 800 million gallons of gas just to cut the grass every year. That's something worth fighting for.

I guess that is what pissed me off about Desert Storm...just admit that we are fighting over oil.

But I have to agree with you there...its bullshit that we still use so much fossil fuels. I wasted my first presidential vote...I voted for a man that, though a polititian, was also an engineer, and understood the need for alternate energy sources, like nuclear energy. I believed that he would admit that there wasn't really an "energy shortage" that it was the oil companies'/OPEC's/the US government's way of increasing fuel prices. But that, along with every other aspect of his adminstration, was an utter failure, and he has spent the last quarter-century trying to atone for his failures while in office. The freaking Nobel Peace Prize...and he kept the cool mil, too.

[KryoNexus]

just on a side note, i'm impressed that nobody has stooped to degrading each other in this thread!!

i don't really have anything to add at this point, though. sorry :-(, lol

[Beemer]

I dont know that this is such a laid back thread though - :idea: maybe we should have a section on politics

[XPTB]

Here's a fun thing to debate over.

Bush cuts overtime pay for folks making over 23k a year.

http://www.freep.com/voices/columnists/eeisen19_20040819.htm

Have fun :D

[Alfonse]

Here's a fun thing to debate over.

Bush cuts overtime pay for folks making over 23k a year.

http://www.freep.com/voices/columnists/eeisen19_20040819.htm

Have fun :D

Hehe,

Bienvenidos a México!

Labor rights are for socialists anyway.

[undergroundtech]

Not really an issue for me, as I work for myself (and don't do overtime).

Lol...but I bet a lot of people making 20K to 22,999 are going to be getting a slight raise.

[TenaciousPD]

My post my not make alot of sense with what has been discussed, i just want to get my 2 cents out.

Im sick and tired of politics, im a democrat at heart, but all I have heard out of both candiates, is bush did this and kerry did that. I dont care anymore. My vote doesnt count anyway, its the electorial colleges vote that does. This country has been ripped apart and screwed over. My dad is a steel worker, his plant produced 90% of the steel that went into GM products during Clintons rule. This countries economics was at its best during his time. If you lost a job, there was another waiting but because of bush and outsourcing, the plant has downsized because steel is imported from China to here ( which is weaker steel, and cheaper), or just like anyother job now, you have to train your foreign counterpart to do your job just to get shit canned. Its really sad that bush says things are returning to normal, but what about the working man? Another thing i think should stop, havent seen anymore of the ads, is the Veterans attacking veterans, they dont have much pride to attack another vet in my opinion like Kerry and say they things they said, just to destroy his credibility just like they did to that man in alabama who lost his legs and 1 arm, and they said he wasnt patrotic. That just like McCain said, was dishonest and dishonorable. But with all that shit going on, I dont see things getting any better here in America.... other countries im sure things are getting better since we are employing them to work for us.

[XPTB]

preach on brother T hehe


I agree with parts of what you said. Bush is definitely screwing the poor folks. Seriously, 23k a year is shit nowadays.


and I agree with you underground, they will think everything rocks getting paid 23.1k a year hahaha. Then they will be asked to come in on Sundays....

[silenze]

Hmm.. good thing I'm salary :oops:

[silenze]

just on a side note, i'm impressed that nobody has stooped to degrading each other in this thread!!

i don't really have anything to add at this point, though. sorry :-(, lol

I think we all learned from the last one that it is a big waste of time and energy. :P

[undergroundtech]

My dad is a steel worker, his plant produced 90% of the steel that went into GM products during Clintons rule. This countries economics was at its best during his time. If you lost a job, there was another waiting but because of bush and outsourcing, the plant has downsized because steel is imported from China to here ( which is weaker steel, and cheaper), or just like anyother job now, you have to train your foreign counterpart to do your job just to get shit canned. Its really sad that bush says things are returning to normal, but what about the working man?


Correction:
Sure things were going well when clinton was in office, but it was during the dot.com boom and everyone were having high hopes on just about everything (with no help from Clinton).
The things you said are left over effects from the Clinton administration.

Personally I think the U.S. should try him for treason, for selling out our country (NAFTA, ect..).

[TenaciousPD]

Nafta....it was either clinton or bush, bush hasnt done anything too get rid of nafta, so why jump clintons case for it?

[undergroundtech]

Trust me it was Clinton that started it, but don' t get me wrong, I don't care for Bush either.
If Kerry & Bush are the only two options.....I vote, "Don't vote"

Seriously there needs to be a third party, I don't care for Nader, but maybe someone will get the idea that I hate the other two options more!

[fstroupe]

HAHAHA....The Detroit Free Press...now THAT is a heavily biased, inbred US media source. Among the most liberal media outlets in the country, even worse than the New York Times, and a direct mouthpiece of the AFL/CIO.

BTW...this regulation went into effect last week, Aug 26th to be exact.

Anyway, lets do a little research on the new regulation. Many pages of legal mumbo-jumbo, that all in all sets three criteria for OT...which many, including teachers, have never gotten anyway. You must meet ALL THREE of the following criteria:

Criteria 1: YOU MUST BE A SALARY EMPLOYEE! That was always the main criteria, and remains so. If you are an hourly employee, you are not, I say again, ARE NOT exempt from overtime.

AND

Criteria 2: In order to be exempt from overtime, the new rules require that employees earn a minimum salary of $455 a week, or $23,660 a year. That's triple the prior minimum salary of $155 a week, or $8,060 a year. White-collar employees who earn more than $100,000 a year are automatically exempt from overtime pay under the new law. That wasn't the case before, although many high-income workers have been exempt for other reasons besides their income level.

AND

Criteria 3: This is where the misinformation comes in...The final prong is called the "duties" test. It tries to establish eligibility based on the type of work an employee performs every day. Under federal law, a worker whose job is deemed "administrative," "professional" or "executive" in nature does not qualify for overtime. The categories themselves won't change.

Instead, the new rules aim to clarify the type of work that qualifies as administrative, professional and executive. For example, under the executive exemption, a fast-food manager who is involved in key staffing decisions like hiring, firing and promoting may no longer be eligible for overtime pay. Previously, that fast-food manager had to have the actual power to hire and fire employees in order to be considered exempt.

SO...to recap...you must be a salary employee...which the main purpose of having salary employees is for them to be exempt from overtime.

You must, in addition to being salary, you must be paid a minimum of $23,660...which ain't crap....but three times what the minimum was last week.

You must also be considered "administrative", "executive", or "professional".

SO, the poor guy that "hands-on-supervises" two other employees, is NOT exempt from overtime unless he is paid on a salary basis, which exempted him from overtime in the first place.

AND>>>businesses are not required NOT to pay overtime if you meet the criteria...my last salary position considered me "non-exempt" for overtime (meaning I was eligible for overtime), though I met all criteria for being exempt.

My personal take on it....little has changed, except that now, McDonalds or Burger King can't pay some poor guy $13,000 a year, call him a manager, and screw him out of overtime...like they did me just over a decade ago!

I researched several sites for this info, the best recap is from CNN, which though not totally liberal, is a somewhat "left-leaning" media outlet, which is clearly shown by the way the following article is worded.

http://money.cnn.com/2004/08/23/news/economy/overtime/[/b]

[XPTB]

Damn, go Knutsaac. Didn't know it was for salary only. I thought if you were salary that means you were already exempt from overtime, hence the salary part. Wouldn't that make this thing redundant?

You do your research :lol:

[fstroupe]

To be honest, though I've spent a total of over 10 years as a salary employee, I wasn't aware of the other criteria. Though, I would hope that most salary employees would make more than 8 grand a year...though the first year I managed for McDonalds, I only made 12.

And there were many weeks that if you averaged it out, I made less than minimum wage. :evil:

I dunno, guess I just like research, and knowing the facts.

[fstroupe]

Seriously there needs to be a third party, I don't care for Nader, but maybe someone will get the idea that I hate the other two options more!

That's why I voted for Ross Perot in '92, as a political statement that we don't HAVE to vote Dem or Rep. Yeah, I know, he was a freaking nut case. They did get the idea, but it didn't last long enough. He got 15% of the vote...I think he would have done even better with a VP that didn't have dementia. Not joking.

[fstroupe]

My post my not make alot of sense with what has been discussed, i just want to get my 2 cents out.

Massive snippage!

other countries im sure things are getting better since we are employing them to work for us.

I wrote a long answer to this earlier today...and as I was finishing, the power went off...lucky for you guys. I'll make this one much shorter.

I feel for your father...the same thing will happen here in my area with the furniture industry in the next decade, with imports from China and India. Probably 50% or more of working adults are involved with this industry in a 3 or 4 county area.

I don't know what the US steel industry could have done differently to protect itself...but it has been on a long slow decline since the late '40's. Japan was buying shiploads of scrap iron and steel since the '30's...that built Mitsubishi Zeros, battleships, and other impliments of war that killed many Americans. One of the ways they rebuilt the country was by shipping goods back to us...made from our scrap. The joke in the late '60's/early '70's, with the mass imports of Japanese cars and motorcycles, was that you could occasionally find a Budweiser label under the fender of a car or bike. Now, with China getting in on the act, the steel industry is pretty much gone, along with the coal industry.

That's why I like Pat Buchanan. He based most of his campaign on job loss. Neither Bush, nor Kerry, nor any other serious candidate for either party can or will do anything about the job loss, too many contributors make too much money overseas. Free trade but fair trade was a popular quote at one time, but you don't hear it anymore.

[XPTB]

Too bad people are all involved in "im a democrat" or "im a republican". We need more independent folks that can think on their own.

[TenaciousPD]

On a funny not, the Japs did buy out my dads steel mill....copied it back in Japan, and then sold back the plant to Americans. A year later they came back to work with the workers again, because they couldnt get the mill working...even though they copied it from us. My dad called it American Inginuity at its best..

[fstroupe]

I guess that I consider myself a Republican, but I really am all over the map with things I believe in. They piss me off constantly, but I guess they piss me off less than the Dems. :oops: Neither party can fix the things that really need fixing, but they talk a good show.

Both parties are equally guilty of disinformation/misinformation, and if you don't believe that, whichever party you believe doesn't has suckered you in. All you can do is read between the lines, decipher the "buzz words and phrases", research as much as you can, and most of all, quit focusing so much on the president and focus on Congress and federal agencies because that is where everything happens.

Yes, the prez is the Commander-in-Chief, and makes war decisions, he can do a few things by executive order, he can veto bills (in their entirity, he doesn't have line item veto, unfortunitely), but pretty much everything else that matters, he has to ask the Congress for.

The elephant and donkey are outdated symbols...both parties should use the piggy bank as their symbol, cause when you get down to it, its all about money.

I like the Libertarian idea, but I'm just not into anarchy. :lol:

[fstroupe]

On a funny not, the Japs did buy out my dads steel mill....copied it back in Japan, and then sold back the plant to Americans. A year later they came back to work with the workers again, because they couldnt get the mill working...even though they copied it from us. My dad called it American Inginuity at its best..

LOL!!! It was probably because of some $2.00 part that wasn't in the blueprints, that some maintenance guy put in to make everything work right.

[XPTB]

LOL!!! It was probably because of some $2.00 part that wasn't in the blueprints, that some maintenance guy put in to make everything work right.

And 5 bucks says that product was Duct Tape :lol:

[undergroundtech]

I guess that I consider myself a Republican, but I really am all over the map with things I believe in. They piss me off constantly, but I guess they piss me off less than the Dems. :oops: Neither party can fix the things that really need fixing, but they talk a good show.

Both parties are equally guilty of disinformation/misinformation, and if you don't believe that, whichever party you believe doesn't has suckered you in. All you can do is read between the lines, decipher the "buzz words and phrases", research as much as you can, and most of all, quit focusing so much on the president and focus on Congress and federal agencies because that is where everything happens.

Yes, the prez is the Commander-in-Chief, and makes war decisions, he can do a few things by executive order, he can veto bills (in their entirety, he doesn't have line item veto, unfortunately), but pretty much everything else that matters, he has to ask the Congress for.

The elephant and donkey are outdated symbols...both parties should use the piggy bank as their symbol, cause when you get down to it, its all about money.

I like the Libertarian idea, but I'm just not into anarchy. :lol:


I agree, and also think the current system is broken. What makes it worse is that they keep trying to change the constitution. It was written for the people, now they keep trying to change it to "for the people with power".
Things are getting so skewed that it will be difficult to ever correct, however I think if something is not done soon it will be irreversible.

[Alfonse]

This got a laugh out of me.
http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/cas/41320476.html

[KryoNexus]

This got a laugh out of me.
http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/cas/41320476.html

not bad for a rant, but he shows nothing to back it up and completely takes one side. still a funny read i suppose, particularly if you are extremely anti bush

[Alfonse]

"What if the whole world could vote in the U.S. presidential election?"

http://betavote.com/

[fstroupe]

Why am I not surprised at the results? They alone give me reason enough not to vote for Kerry, to be totally honest with you.

[T-shirt]

The elephant and donkey are outdated symbols...both parties should use the piggy bank as their symbol, cause when you get down to it, its all about money.

:lol:
Ok I'm with you on that.
It disgusts me the over a billion dollars have been spent, not to clarify and discuss important issues and possible solutions, but largely on advertising designed to confuse and sway voters.

[KryoNexus]

www.citizensunited.org

[Beemer]

"What if the whole world could vote in the U.S. presidential election?"

http://betavote.com/

Looks a little lop-sided to me.

United States 8218 18617 30 % 69 %

Bush is actually ahead slightly in most U.S. polls I have seen. Not very accurate.....